Ideal game?

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by MisterSinister on Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:10 pm

Solnath wrote:Yes, because technically speaking, any character on that level with that feat can fly. Which, while "balanced," doesn't even have the excuse of magic to support it.

This begs the question why I care. Why does it NEED any excuse to support it? It's balanced, level-appropriate and (dare I say it?) cool. If you have issues with that, I frankly don't wanna game with you. Razz
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Solnath on Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:55 pm

You need suspension of disbelief to immerse yourself into the gameworld and that won't happen with no justification whatsoever. Game mechanics -wise, the feat's justified by "keeping things fair," but thought-wise, it doesn't make any sense. Balance is something that keeps us from falling down regardless of shifts in our centre of gravity, what we're standing on, etc.

The idea that the ability to keep yourself in whatever orientation you like (if you're good enough) would also enable you to negate your weight is quite mind-bogglingly daft. There's nothing cool about stupidity.

As for the "balanced" part, all magic is supernatural, meaning that if it's used, it cries havoc on the causal nature of the universe. For a fighter to be able to do the same, they'd have to be capable of, for example, hitting the fabric of space-time powerfully and accurately enough to temporarily unravel it and make it readjust itself like the fighter wants. However, that level of play will never happen, because while materialistic mundane classes are learning to survive under the sometimes harsh rules of the world that they have no chance but to obey, first-level spellcasters are beginning to bend or break those rules.

In short, in high-magic, magicians are superior to mundane folks and although this could be adjusted for by making magic-use cost lifespan or cause pain, it still does not mean that just because some people can get God to open a door for them, mundane folks can walk through walls.

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by MisterSinister on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:14 pm

DnD according to Solnath: Fighters can't have nice things.

Essentially, this statement is what your entire argument boils down to, and it is DAFT. It's on a similar level to claiming that you can imagine pigs flying, but cows not - a subjective statement with no grounding whatsoever. As far as suspension of disbelief goes, people at level 5 in DnD already break world records according to the skill system, and at 12 becomes superheroes. Therefore, your argument does not wash.

If you want a game where one set of classes have to totally rely on another set to even PLAY the game at high levels, and who stop contributing at level 4 or so, play Pathfinder. The rest of us, who do not get caught up on asinine details, can use a system which makes sense and isn't fvcking broken.
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Solnath on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:38 pm

D&D? I was talking about all fantasy with high-magic.

A system that makes sense and isn't broken? Doesn't sound like D&D to me. Most of the Tomes is a nice effort, but wasted as even the best duct tape can't fix a broken vase.

My statement, on the other hand, can not be likened to yours that pigs could fly but cows couldn't. On the contrary, it is much more along the lines of "birds [spellcasters] can fly because they have the capacity [magic] whereas cows [mundies] can not because they don't have such a capacity [magic]."

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by MisterSinister on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:42 pm

Solnath wrote:D&D? I was talking about all fantasy with high-magic.

A system that makes sense and isn't broken? Doesn't sound like D&D to me. Most of the Tomes is a nice effort, but wasted as even the best duct tape can't fix a broken vase.

My statement, on the other hand, can not be likened to yours that pigs could fly but cows couldn't. On the contrary, it is much more along the lines of "birds [spellcasters] can fly because they have the capacity [magic] whereas cows [mundies] can not because they don't have such a capacity [magic]."

Well, if you continue to insist this, then there's not much the Tomes, or anyone else, can do about that. If you LIKE things being that way, which is seems like you do, then by all means, play whatever.
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Solnath on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:48 pm

As I mentioned before, the differences between magicians and mundies can be balanced, though certainly not by breaking the mundies in completely absurd ways (mind you, magic, while a Cartesian withdrawal, is still an excuse). One of the many reasons why I prefer free-form.

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by MisterSinister on Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:12 pm

Solnath wrote:As I mentioned before, the differences between magicians and mundies can be balanced, though certainly not by breaking the mundies in completely absurd ways (mind you, magic, while a Cartesian withdrawal, is still an excuse). One of the many reasons why I prefer free-form.

As I said before, this is only absurd because you choose to make it so, not because that's the be-all and end-all truth to the matter. In any case, continuing this argument is pointless, as we simply won't agree. You keep your thinking, I'll keep mine, and never the twain shall meet. Wink
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Jolkuna on Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:18 pm

Damn, you stopped arguing? I was hoping I'd get to lock this thread. Man, that would have been awesome!
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Solnath on Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Why, this is perfectly on topic. The thread is called the "Ideal game?" after all.

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by MisterSinister on Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:29 pm

Jolkuna wrote:Damn, you stopped arguing? I was hoping I'd get to lock this thread. Man, that would have been awesome!

Sorry to disappoint, but I believe that argument with no end that leads to locking to be counterproductive in the extreme. Razz
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Jolkuna on Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:43 am

Yeah, but I've actually never locked a thread (as far as I remember). And Sol it doesn't matter if it's on topic or not, as far as I have a good enough excuse to lock it. Just try to stop me.
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Solnath on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:05 am

And do like you want me to do? You wish.

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Jolkuna on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:15 am

I knew you were too smart for me. Suspect
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Reverend Red on Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:51 pm

I'll be digging in sooner or later. I like the concept of non-caster party that manages at all.

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by MisterSinister on Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:03 am

Reverend Red wrote:I'll be digging in sooner or later. I like the concept of non-caster party that manages at all.

Hear hear! As well as balance across classes and real options for melee and common sense with magic items and polymorph not being stupid and...

Yeah, I'm a horrible, horrible Frank Trollman fanboy.
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Tshern on Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:13 am

Sort of weird to think that Polymorph is not even way up there in power. It's merely stupid.

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by MisterSinister on Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:14 am

Tshern wrote:Sort of weird to think that Polymorph is not even way up there in power. It's merely stupid.

Well, as Frank Trollman said, the Votron phenomenon of polymorph effects is stupid in any iteration.
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Tshern on Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:18 am

In 3.5 most non-casters had to be based on the Votron phenomenon. This is the point where we again face the problem of defining the term. If you use a couple of spells you can cast to turn yourself into a mad, angry CoDzilla, are we talking about the VP or not? On the other hand, AoO BFC characters use features of several classes to actually become effective.

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by MisterSinister on Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:04 am

Tshern wrote:In 3.5 most non-casters had to be based on the Votron phenomenon. This is the point where we again face the problem of defining the term. If you use a couple of spells you can cast to turn yourself into a mad, angry CoDzilla, are we talking about the VP or not? On the other hand, AoO BFC characters use features of several classes to actually become effective.

I'm just gonna quote Frank Trollman here, as he explains this better than I ever could.

Frank Trollman wrote:If you take part of your character – any part of your character – and part of a monster from one of the many monster books in D&D, and you put them together into a single Voltron-like body, you have broken D&D. That should be obvious, but since we are over six years into the ridiculous circus that is polymorph in 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons, apparently it isn’t. If it is important to you that you be allowed to dumpster dive through the monster books and find an appropriate to transform into, it is important to D&D that absolutely no part of your character be mixed and matched during that period. If you want to truly become a monster, you have to actually become that monster. Not “the monster with all my spell effects running”, not “the monster with my formidable mental attributes. No. You need to become the monster exactly as it appears
in the monster book or there’s no chance of you getting a balanced result. Some people are going to end
up as mediocre monsters with carry-over abilities that happen to synergize well and become tremendously
powerful while other people are just as unbalanced in the other direction when they find that drawbacks of
their character are carried over and overwrite the abilities of a monster that are supposed to make them any
good at all.
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Reverend Red on Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:43 pm

I don't even know how I missed the discussion between Sol and MS, but reading it, I find the discussion really cool and interesting. It was pitting game against story in a nicely narrowed-down space, that really got just a tad too personal (let the Darkwinds take care of attacking people instead of issues!) Either way, I can see a lot of logic in both of your arguments. I'd like to hear the rest of the discussion, because the only way I see can that the two worlds of game balance and worldly lojix combine is the making of... a new system! I'd like to hear what people here would have to contribute to that...

Anyway, I'm seeing that these Tomes seem to be what people would like to play, maybe excluding Sol, and probably not even him. Wonder if political intrigue and the Tomes should be the core portions of this mixed bag game.

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Deodanth on Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:32 am

What does Voltron have to do with this?
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Tshern on Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:24 pm

Read the explanation Mister Sinister quoted. Giving something a catchy name makes it easy to remember too.

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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Deodanth on Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:07 pm

OK. Just wondering if this was a term commonly used in the community or not. I suppose "Voltron vs. CoDzilla, the Battle of teh Millenium" is sorta catchy too.
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Re: Ideal game?

Post by Tshern on Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:30 pm

Probably not that commonly used, seems like a piece of TGD vocabulary.

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